ON FRENCH IMMERSION

GARY MIDDLEHOLST: Well the debate over early, middle and late immersion seemed to be all but settled a few years ago. Instead of several different entry points, we have just two - early immersion at Grade 1, and late immersion at Grade 6. This way a child who starts school in St. Stephen and moves, say, to Campbellton, can continue with the very same program.
But now the school district in Moncton wants to change that. It wants to bring back middle immersion, starting in Grade 4. It blames early immersion for poor literacy scores and for streaming. This hour we have a special province-wide phone-in on Main Street; we’re asking you “What we do need to change about the way we teach French immersion in New Brunswick?
The numbers again, 1-800-668-4913, that’s tool free. Collect: 506-642-3305; or in St. John, 642-3305.
We have two guests for our phone-in. In our Moncton studio, Andrew Richardson, he chairs the District 2 School Board in Moncton; and in our Fredericton studio, Sally Rehorick.. She’s the director of the Second Language Education Centre at UNB Fredericton.
First, we go to Andrew Richardson, and he’s in Moncton.
MIDDLEHOLST: This is an initiative of your school board, middle immersion was dispensed with I guess years ago now. Andrew, what put middle immersion back on the agenda again in Moncton?
RICHARDSON: Well, we had been hearing anecdotally from parents and from teachers, that there were troubles, particularly with streaming. And then, at the very same time, we received some results on the International Test, in which New Brunswick students finished dead last, in every category, and we also then began to gather some data of our own, which did prove that there was significant streaming happening.
MIDDLEHOLST: When you say streaming, let’s define what you mean by that, first of all.
RICHARDSON: Okay. Well, we know, for example, that the majority of District 2 students – I’m talking about District 2 only – with exceptionalities, that is kids who are struggling for one reason or another, 93.7 per cent of those kids, in the K to 8 at least, are in the core program. So 93.7 (sic) of the kids that struggle are in the English side. So that’s a clear evidence that there is streaming. And we also know that we assessed the kids entering Grade 1, in September of 02, and found that 28.5 per cent of all of the kids that struggle in reading, when they were assessed, are on the English side. So again, another example of streaming.
MIDDLEHOLST: Okay now, how would middle immersion, starting in Grace 4, how would that improve literacy scores, do you think?
RICHARDSON: Okay. Well first of all, we know that society now expects very high standards of literacy, to meet current job demands. We know that the probability that a child who’s a poor reader in the first grade will remain a poor reader at the end of the fourth grade is about 88 per cent. So we know that you need to intervene early, and we believe that if you were able to focus on say, K to 3, for example, that for all but a small number of children, any reading difficulties may be addressed through this kind of early intervention, and we think that all kids will benefit from a focus on literacy, on English literacy.
INTERVIEWER: On English, up to Grade 4?
RICHARDSON: Up to Grade 4, perhaps; I mean, it could… We haven’t landed on an exact time to begin second language training, but Grade 4 is certainly one of the area, the times that we’ve talked about.
INTERVIEWER: Okay, what about the area of streaming now? You mentioned some of the problems you see there. How would starting immersion, say in Grade 4, address those?
RICHARDSON: Okay, well, f you anticipate – and studies have shown that you can anticipate that there are about 20 to 30 per cent of children who are likely to struggle as they learn to read – now, if you can intervene with those children early, and bring them up to a level where they are functioning well, then those children, it seems to me, would be ready then to learn a second language. And we’re strongly encouraged by a lot of the research in language transference skills: you learn your first language well, and then there are some of those skills that transfer over in a natural way to learning a second language, despite whatever idiosyncrasies there are in the second language. So, build good language skills in the first language, and then introduce a very thorough and good second language program at a later date, and we believe you’ll create students who are literate, not only in their first language, but literate in the second.
MIDDLEHOLST: Okay Andrew. That’s Andrew Richardson. Stay where you are in the studio there. He chairs the District 2 School Board in Moncton, he’s one of our guests. Sally Rehorick is in the Fredericton studio. We’re going to talk to her in a moment. First though, let’s take a couple of your calls. We do have callers phoning in.
The question is “What do we need to change about the way we teach French immersion in
New Brunswick?”.
Our first caller is Karen Baird, from Moncton. Hello Karen.
KAREN: Hello.
INTERVIEWER: So what do we need to change about French immersion?
KAREN: Well first, I just want to say that I’m a speech language pathologist, working at the Moncton Hospital, and so I have a fair amount of knowledge in the area of language acquisition, first and second language. So just to give you some qualifications here; so I’m not just speaking off the top of my head. The proposal to change the entry point from… an early entry point to a later entry point really disturbs me for a number of reasons. Mr. Richardson’s right about learning your first language well, and then you are more able to, or better able to, learn a second language. However, learning your language well takes place by the age of 5. If the children of New Brunswick had strong language skills by the age of 5 in their first language – and there are a number of ways to do that, including more speech language services, that’s not a pub from my profession, it’s just a fact – a lot more New Brunswick children would be ready to become literate in French and English, French or English, and in both languages. The later the second language is brought in, the more difficult it is to learn. The earlier it’s brought in, the younger you are, the easier it is to learn. Children in early immersion, we know, are better at French, more fluent in a number of measures, than children who are in later immersion. You also have social factors, like a child in Grade 1 who goes into early immersion, is just like “well, I guess that’s the way school is; there’s a lot of French here!” In Grade 4, you’ve already been in school in English for quite a few years, and there are a lot of children who might be a lot more reluctant to begin learning that language at a later date. He talks about the streaming issue. Yes, you may get your better and your brightest students going into the immersion stream, and then your core English program ends up with difficulties because you get your behaviour problems, your average students, of course some above average students as well, who just chose not to go into French, but you know, there needs to be… the solution to that is there needs to be more streaming in this province. There aren’t any other options, for parents who want to have their children challenged. You don’t have different levels in different grades for your gifted children, your brightest children, your children who are learning disabled. As well, a learning disabled child really is not able to go into the French immersion program because there’s not the support that they would need.
MIDDLEHOLST: Okay, Karen, on that note, we’re going to have to just cut you off. We have to move along. Thank you for making these comments.
KAREN: Okay.
MIDDLEHOLST: That’s Karen Baird, from Moncton. And Andrew, just… you were taking notes; maybe you could address some of those concerns that Karen brought up, there. We want to go to our Fredericton studio now, and joining us there is Sally Rehorick. She’s the director of Second Language Education Centre at UNB. She trains teachers how to teach second languages, and she’s also the parent of a child who went through middle immersion. And Sally good afternoon, thanks for joining us.
REHORICK: Good afternoon Gary, hello Andrew.
MIDDLEHOLST: I’m sure he couldn’t hear you…. What do you think needs to be changed about the way we teach French immersion here in New Brunswick?
REHORICK: Well, I think that… I certainly hear the concerns of Andrew; the streaming and so forth, poor literacy scores, and…. I have to wonder, though, which international test he was actually looking at, to say that French immersion had a detrimental effect on English literacy skills? If he’s referring, for example, to the program for international student assessment, which are the PISA results, they didn’t show that at all. On the overall, they show that Canada, first of all, did very well on those tests. They’re third as a nation in literacy scores, and yes, among provinces in Canada, New Brunswick is dead last, and nobody likes to be dead last for sure. But the results of those tests were not divided into whether students had studied in English or French. And so, we can’t say that French immersion is the problem there. So, I’m just wondering whether he was looking at the same results as I was or not. The streaming issue is of course a concern to everybody. What we know about second language acquisition is that all people can learn a second language. As the caller from Moncton noted, the earlier the better, the earlier the easier. But what happens when you delay the entry point into French immersion, you’re actually exacerbating the problem of streaming. Because we know from research that’s been done again and again, the later the start, the more likely it is that students who have a wider range of academic abilities, the less likely it is that they will be in French immersion. In fact, the proposal to push back the entry could in fact make the problem worst. In terms of changes that I would recommend, I would want to see that the advantages of learning two languages simultaneously should be offered and available to all students. New Brunswick is, after all, an officially bilingual province, and we need to turn that to our advantage. There are cognitive benefits to learning a second language at a high level; the earlier you start that, the more likelihood there is to be a high level of language learning. And there’s no detrimental effect on anyone; there’s no research in existence that shows that the learning of a second language harms the first language. In fact, the opposite is true. So I would introduce French immersion even earlier; I think at Kindergarten French immersion would encourage a broader range of children to enter French immersion in Kindergarten; there would be less likelihood for there to be streaming even after that. The children would be moving ahead more quickly in French, they’d be probably ready to start English earlier, maybe by the end of… Grade 2 or 3 level. So I would start it earlier, I would provide, as the caller from Moncton said, much more support for parents and children who might have difficulties; they’re going to have the same difficulties in English. We need to have bilingual support for them. So I would recommend that as a change, and I would certainly pursue the intensive French option, which is currently being piloted in the province, to enhance the core French program for those students.
MIDDLEHOLST: Okay Sally. Andrew, I know you want to jump in here. We want to get one more caller in, before we break for news, and then we’ve got lots of (inaudible) for the discussion, right after the news. We’re going to go to a caller in Saint John. Tom McNaulty is on the line. Hello there, Tom.
TOM: How are you doing Garry?
MIDDLEHOLST: Fine, thanks. So what do we need to change about the way we teach French immersion in New Brunswick?
TOM: Well actually, I’m quite happy with the French immersion program. My daughter’s is in Grade 5 right now, and the French immersion program has been there since Grade 1. Early on, I realized that when she was at school, that this was just normal; this is the way she learned how to speak, and learned a second language. From Day 1, in French immersion, the classroom spoke French. Today, we realize as a family that we have to encourage her to read in English, and she reads at least three books, four books a month; English reading books, which hasn’t hurt a bit, and she’s done very well with the program. My objections from years ago that it was…. that English…. they suffered in their English skills… but I think it’s up to the parents to encourage the children, and teach them how to read and learn the English skill at home.
MIDDLEHOLST: All right Andrew, what do you say to that?
RICHARDSON: A great thing to learn to read English at home. We do know that all children don’t have the benefit of having parents who are as encouraging as our caller is, and we need to be cognisant of those kids. We do need to take note that the majority of French second language students in our district do not in fact meet the program goals as measured by the New Brunswick Grade 12 Oral Proficiency Assessment. So, if the goal of French immersion is to attain a certain level of proficiency, we know that in early French immersion, or early French immersion in this district, only 31 per cent of the students meet the program goals. We also know that there’s a very large dropout rate. Kids don’t finish the program, so there are problems with the French immersion that go just beyond early language acquisition. I do want to say that whether there’s actual breakdown of statistics in the PISA exams, we do know that collectively, New Brunswick doesn’t do very well and it’s fine and well to say Canada as a whole does well, and Canada did indeed do better than many countries. But I don’t think it’s acceptable, it’s unacceptable to our district at least, to have our province at the bottom of the list. And what we’re suggesting is that by working at early literacy, K to 3, we can improve those scores and we don’t think that there’s anything significantly detrimental to learning a second language at a later entry port.
TOM: Well I think – just one thing and then I’ll leave – is that if parents want their children to learn a second language, they have to take the responsibility to help that child, because it’s not only learning English language properly, and the challenge of learning a second language. If parents are going to take the responsibility to enrol their children into this program, then they have to accept the responsibility, and not just lay the burden on the teacher, the overworked teacher, to make sure that their child is taught right. Parents have to take the responsibility to look after that.
MIDDLEHOLST: All right Tom. On that, I’m going to thank you for calling. Andrew and Sally, hold tight, we have to break for news here and we’ll take more of your calls and we’ll be able to continue this discussion.
The question we’re asking you is “What do we need to change about the way we teach French immersion in New Brunswick?” Of course, Moncton district is looking at, parents are voting, principals are in favour of this, many of the principals at least, they want to change the start to middle immersion, starting about in Grade 4. What do you think, what do we need to change about the way we teach French immersion in this province?
Well today on Main Street, in our last half hour, we’re having a phone-in on French immersion. The school district in Moncton is pushing to change the way we teach French immersion in New Brunswick. They blame early immersion for the poor literacy test scores in the province and English classes with high numbers of children needing special attention. A The parent survey is calling on the government to bring back middle immersion starting in Grade 4. But French immersion advocates say that would only make matters worst. The education system doesn’t need any more change. Our guests today: Sally Rehorick is the director of the Second Language Education Centre at UNB in Fredericton; she thinks things are fine the way they are at least, immersion should maybe even start earlier; and Andrew Richardson chairs the District 2 School Board in Moncton, and he’s heading this call to start middle immersion in Grade 4. And Andrew and Sally, thanks for being here. Feel free to just jump in, they’re in our Fredericton and Moncton studios. And for the next while, we’re going to take a lot of your calls, because many people have called in.
Let’s go to a caller from Sackville now. Bernadine Conron. Conron is on the phone. Bernadine, good afternoon.
CONRON: Good afternoon.
MIDDLEHOLST : So what do we need to change about the way we teach French immersion here?
CONRON: Well, it’s ironic that the situation of French immersion has shown up, because I’m actually not from New Brunswick; I’m from Nova Scotia, and I moved into the region because I felt it was important that my children receive an education in French immersion. And now that my son, who will be beginning Kindergarten in September, that opportunity may not be available to him. So other than the academic implications, we also need to realize that there may be huge financial repercussions, if programs such as early immersion are taken out of the area.
MIDDLEHOST: How so?
CONRON: I know myself, I would not have chosen to live in the area; I would have chosen an area perhaps such as Halifax, that does have a thriving early French immersion program. But the question that you’re asking is what needs to be changed within the early immersion program? Well, Mr. Richardson had some interesting statistics that he said 93.7 per cent of the students with special needs are in the English stream, and that without early intervention, 88 per cent of poor readers will continue. To me, that does not seem like a French immersion concern; that seems like an English early intervention concern. And nowhere in the DEC proposal have I read or has it been explained to me some concrete plans for early intervention. Programs that have success, such as Reading Recovery, which is an intensive
6-week reading program for students in Grade 1, and it’s available only to Grade 1 students actually, that shows tremendous increases in their literacy; that has not been discussed. Access to more resource teachers or perhaps speech language pathologist has not been addressed. So to me, if there’s problems with the literacy rate of students in the English stream, with the streaming effect of 93.7 per cent of students with special needs in the English stream, that’s an English concern; that’s not a French immersion concern.
MIDDLEHOLST : Okay Bernadine. Andrew, what about that?
RICHARDSON: Well, first of all, I’m not sure it’s totally correct to say that we blame French immersion for literacy problems. I wouldn’t say that. We know we do have a literacy problem, we don’t score the way we should. Now with regard to the English side, I mean, is it a concern of the French immersion students? Well, maybe not, but it seems to me that we, as a District Education Council, need to represent every student; not just students in French immersion, not just students on the English side. And it’s not acceptable to us to have kids stream; so that’s one problem, and in actual fact, our Number 1 priority, our goal, states that we will develop initiatives and programs to be implemented by September 2003 (sic), at the K to 3 level, to assure all students exiting Grade 3 read in the English language at an acceptable level, by June 2006. So we’re doing exactly what the caller wants to see done. We are putting a lot of effort and a lot of programs and a lot of initiatives into our early reading and early literacy at the K to 3 level.
REHORICK: It’s Sally, Gary. I’d like to add to what Andrew is saying, in the sense that I think it’s not widely understood that you don’t necessarily develop better literacy skills by doing it only in one language. In fact, all the research shows us that learning two languages simultaneously can actually help the development of the first language. And that’s because of something that we call the “interdependence hypothesis”, and the notion that there needs to be enough space in one’s brain, if you will, to handle a first language first, and then you kind of fit in the second language, is not the right image to have. The languages co-exist quite well in one’s brain, and in fact they help each other. So that can happen very early. Again, the later you leave the start, the more likely you’re to have the streaming. One of the callers…
MIDDLEHOLST : How is that, can you explain that just briefly?
REHORICK: Sure. Because when parents put their kids in school early on, as some of the callers point out, they just go to school, that’s the way it is. And they have a very
language-rich environment, they’re learning everything through the second language, and because of that, their language develops well in both. The first language is never at any kind of risk, because they’re majority language children surrounded by English outside the school. So the first language is never, ever affected. However, what we’ve seen is that if we take a Grade 7 start, which we used to have in New Brunswick, that was highly streamed; and only the very academically… high academic kids were headed into that. It creates much more streaming later on. I mean, if you had a child who at Grade 3 level is told by the teacher that the literacy skills are not developed well, are you likely to put them in Grade 4 immersion? No, you’re not. If they’re put in earlier on, then all those difficulties and so forth will go along with the development of two languages, which is an advantage; it doesn’t disadvantage people. I’d like to just point out something that the Edmonton School District has recently done. They’ve decided to revitalize in fact their French immersion program, and the main reason is because of the (inaudible) of advantages. It’s going to make your kid smarter, basically, the intellectual potential, the scholastic achievement is higher; and they specifically focus on children with learning disabilities and from low socio-economic backgrounds. And their research has shown that those children are being more successful as well.
MIDDLEHOLST : Okay Sally, thank you. On that, we’re going to go to another call now. William Forstall is on the line from Fredericton. William, what do we need to change about the way we do French immersion in this province?
WILLIAM: Well actually, I think the question really should be it’s not what should we change about the French immersion program, but how do we make the English program better. The French immersion program seems to be working reasonably well. In New Brunswick however, it is the English program, and the lack of educational choice within the English system that is really compounding our problems. Most people in New Brunswick don’t realize that every province west of New Brunswick has a much, much broader range of educational choice available to all parents.
MIDDLEHOLST : In what way?
WILLIAM: In what ways? They’ll fund independent schools, they’ll fund parochial schools, they have separate school boards that compete with the public school boards and sure the public school board is doing what every parent wants, not just simply the majority, but what every parent wants. And that way, every child learns in the best manner best suited to their abilities, talents and interests. Edmonton was mentioned. Edmonton has 30 different kinds of schools. They have little cadet schools in English for students in English, they have French immersion of course, they have… every province has French immersion. They have. every kind of parochial school, they even have a Jewish school, for children who want to learn Hebrew in their original tongue. There’s virtually every kind of choice available – little cadet schools like I mentioned, they have (inaudible) schools, they have international baccalaureate schools, a broad range. So children with interests, talents and abilities can soak this in and choose the schools that best match their needs.
MIDDLEHOLST : Okay William, thanks a lot. William Forestall from Fredericton. Our next caller: Paul Renaud, from Miramichi. Hello Paul, what do we need to change about the way we teach French immersion in New Brunswick?
PAUL: Well, I think the earlier the better; I’m going to agree with (inaudible). There’s a lot of statistics being thrown around, and I’m just curious. What is the percentage of students that actually take French immersion, so that I can compare that 93.5 (sic) per cent to something?
MIDDLEHOLST : Do we know that?
RICHARDSON: Okay. I can tell you that in early French immersion, in New Brunswick, it’s 30 per cent. In this district, in the Moncton area, it’s 55 per cent.
PAUL: So 55 per cent. Okay. However, English is my second language, and I practically don’t remember learning English. You know, I picked it up on the street. But every article I’ve read about acquiring languages always says the earlier the better, and that – and this I remember as a kid – that when you have two languages, you sit there and compare; oh isn’t that interesting: this word is the same, this word is different, and you pick up on the concepts rather than the words. And studies have also demonstrated this. So I can’t see how delaying that will help dealing with the first language. To me, if you learn two languages, French or Italian or Vietnamese, it’s going to help you with your first language. And I also think that the more delayed… There’s a pruning phenomenon going on in the brain, apparently. You know, the brain can do all sorts of stuff and if some things don’t get utilized, well, they end up dying off. So that people that let’s say learn English only for a long time, when they have to acquire another language, which has – and I’m not sure this is the correct term – but it has “phonies” that don’t exist in English, they can never hear them. I had a friend who was Vietnamese, and he was teaching me this little children song, and to me the six words all sounded exactly the same. And he says you know, to a Vietnamese person they sound quite different. But I can’t hear it because, you know, I can’t learn Vietnamese at the age of 27.
MIDDLEHOLST : Paul, thanks for your call.
RICHARDSON: Can I just jump in here?
MIDDLEHOLST : Go ahead Andrew.
RICHARDSON: One of the things that’s being taken for granted here, that I’m not sure is quite correct, is that in fact people are learning two languages as they go through. We know that in this district, over the last 8 years, only 37 per cent of all students have completed their French immersion program. So there’s a high level of dropout rate, particularly in the high school level. We also know that over the last four years, those kids who had done early French immersion for example, only 31 per cent had met the program goals. So I’m not sure that one can safely say that kids are learning two languages, because they’re not meeting the goals, even the basic goals of the program itself.
REHORICK. It’s Sally here. The basic program goals are in fact very high goals, and if you look even two decades ago, the late 70’s, a study was done, it was called “The Bazier (?) Study” by the Department of Education on the French language skills of the Anglophones, and an overwhelming majority of graduates from our school system in the late 70’s barely reached the scale, the oral proficiency scale, that is used today to measure. Now today, two decades later, after the Department put in French immersion and many many improvements to our language programs, the statistic has reversed. So not meeting the program goals does not necessarily mean that there hasn’t been a huge improvement, and the students are coming out with skills that they can use every day. And in addition, they have that, as the caller mentioned, a flexibility of thinking that the unilingual does not have. I would want to think that we would, in New Brunswick, use our bilingual province to advantage everyone. And if students are dropping out at the high school level, work with that. Work with that, make it better at the high school level so they don’t drop out.
MIDDLEHOLST : All right, let’s go to another caller now. We have John Hill now on the line from Quispamsis. Hello John.
JOHN: Hello Garry.
MIDDLEHOLST : So what do you think we need to do about French immersion?
JOHN: Well, I represent the anecdotes. I’ve got four…. I’ve been blessed with four very bright children, and my oldest graduated from late immersion last year and she’s actually in Belgium now, living in French for a year. My next one is entering high school, she also was in late immersion, she’s excelling at it. The 10-year-old boy that we have is in early immersion, and he has struggled since the beginning of school. The language, the vocabulary, that he has now in Grade 5, isn’t up to par with the vocabulary that he had before he started school! His creativity is stymied. He can’t get the nuances or tell a joke in French; they don’t get the figures of speech, they don’t get to become really proficient and learn expressions in their mother tongue. What I hear over and over again from your representatives there is the focus for this early immersion program is learning French, it doesn’t seem to be giving the children an education. Never mind that they don’t get science or social studies or things that they have to learn in their community; as long as they learn how to speak French. My youngest child is in kindergarten, and we are really struggling with what to do with her next year, because she’s telling stories, she’s riming, and that same thing happened with our son, and we don’t want to see it shut there, we want her to be able to be expressive in her mother tongue before she learns another language.
MIDDLEHOLST : Thank you John. We want to try to get, to squeeze at least more caller in here before we have to wrap this up. Thanks to John Hill from Quispamsis. We have Ann Hogan on the line now. And she’s with Canadian Parents for French and she’s also in Quispamsis. Hello Ann.
ANN: Hi Garry.
MIDDLEHOLST : So what do you think, what do we need to do about French immersion, if anything?
ANN: Well I agree with the couple of callers back there that said they need to focus on…. Leave French immersion as is, and follow Policy 309, it’s really only been in force since about ’96, it’s not fully implemented. So the districts really need to comply with that, and District 6 has and we’ve seen good results with that. So maybe the other districts should have a look at that as well. I know there’s a fair number of literacy programs going on in District 6 right now, I have three children in elementary school, they are all involved in a reading program; whether it’s Reading for Gold or Stick to it, and even my one in Grande 1 is following those programs as well. So I think one of the things they need to look at though is providing more support for parents with children in French immersion, especially those parents that don’t have any French knowledge at all. At Canadian Parents for French, we’ve actually taken the initiative to do that, and we do have some parent classes going on, and the next group will start around the week of February the 10th. So that’s one of the things, and also at Canadian Parents for French, we try to provide the extra things for children in French immersion and in core French. So we’re not just for the French immersion programs, we’ve bought resources for core French programs to some of the schools in the district. I just thought…. My little girl in Grade 1 here and she just wanted to read just a short thing, and also I was speaking to my daughter who’s in Grade 3 and she’s been following the story with the Moncton issue, and she was quite upset when she thought that they were going to eliminate the Grade 1 entry point. So, just (inaudible). But here’s Emily.
MIDDLEHOLST : Okay. Emily? She’s in Grade 1?
EMILY: Hi. « ll fait froid aujourd’hui. J’ai mon pantalon bleu, sur ma tête j’ai une tuque violet. Aujourd’hui, autour de mon cou j’ai un foulard jaune et vert. »
MIDDLEHOLST : Okay Emily, thank you. That’s Emily Hogan, Grade 1. And thanks to Ann Hogan for calling. We’re going to take one more call, from Dale Thibodeau in Bathurst, and then we’ll go back to Andrew and Sally and wrap this up. Dale, how are you?
ANN: Hi, sorry. She wants to read a little bit in English as well.
MIDDLEHOLST : Well I’m afraid we don’t have time, Ann. We’re going to another caller here. Thanks a lot. And we have Dale Thibodeau on the line. Hello Dale, maybe we don’t. Dale Thibodeau from Bathurst. I guess not. Maybe we do. We do! Hello Dale.
DALE: Hi, how are you doing?
MIDDLEHOLST : Hi. Okay, we had a little trouble finding you there.
DALE: It must be the snow.
MIDDLEHOLST : It could be, there’s lots of that! So what do you think, what do we need to do about the way we teach French immersion?
DALE: I just have a little question. Just, curiosity sort of kills the cat I guess. There seems to be a really great importance of pushing the French language into the English school system; what about the English language into the French school system, especially in the French communities? There seems to be a lot of kids speaking French but not yet knowing or wanting to speak English.
MIDDLEHOLST : Any of you….
DALE: Anybody want to touch on that?
MIDDLEHOLST : Andrew, do you want to address that? Not the topic but…
RICHARDSON: My understanding is that in the francophone system, they use a Grade 4 entry point for English instruction, and their logic behind that is exactly the logic that we’re using, which is “Ground your kids in your first language, and then move on to the second.”
REHORICK: They don’t have an English immersion program, and they don’t have any kind of policy on the francophone side, which would set standards for the English programs. And we know that on those international tests, the kids in the francophone schools had lower literacy scores than in the Anglophone schools of New Brunswick.
MIDDLEHOLST : Okay Dale, thanks a lot.
DALE: Thank you very much.
MIDDLEHOLST : One last call. We’re going to go to Paul Wilson, in Rothesay. Hi there, Paul.
PAUL: Hello.
MIDDLEHOLST : How are you?
PAUL: Fine, thank you.
MIDDLEHOLST : What do you think needs to be done to French immersion?
PAUL: Well I don’t know, from my experience I think it’s working pretty good. It depends how much the parents participate with their kids that are in the program. I have three kids that started in the early French immersion, here in District 6, and all three of them are doing well. They come home with tons of homework, and they do it, they learn to work hard, and their English doesn’t suffer either. So I kind of wonder whether your gentleman from the Moncton area, whether they have ulterior motives there, or what? Statistics that he’s quoting seems to be a lot of…. Your callers are taking exception to them.
MIDDLEHOLST : All right Paul, thank you very much.
RICHARDSON: Just a word on ulterior motives. I want to make it clear that we share with Sally, with Canadian Parents for French, a desire to learn a second language, we’re firmly committed to that. And we also celebrate our bilingualism in this province, it’s a wonderful asset and a wonderful gift. The only thing we differ at I guess is where the best point to teach that is. Let it not ever be said that this is a district that does support French second language.
MIDDLEHOLST : All right, on that note, I think we have to wrap. Andrew, thank you very much.
RICHARDSON: Thank you.
MIDDLEHOLST : Sally, thank you very much.
REHORICK: Thank you.
MIDDLEHOLST : Great having you both here. And thanks to all our callers. Sally Rehorick is the Director of the Second Language Education Centre at UNB in Fredericton, and Andrew Richardson chairs the District 2 School Board in Moncton. And thanks to all our callers.